Arts

New ideas, features you wish were in the game.
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Scorra
Mangy-Looking Leper
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue 27.09.2011, 11:02

Arts

Post by Scorra » Tue 27.09.2011, 11:04

I am not very happy how artefacts work in mangband for a couple of reasons:

Arts drop like candy for those that dive first.
Currently I am using useful arts on almost every slot i got, a ZoCD at the depth i am atm contains almost every time not only one but multiple arts. On the other hand: In the last instance of the Mangband server (i started when most arts where claimed) i was hardly able to find any useful art at all.

While this is ok for the offline version of the game this is not very good for a multiplayer game in which arts only exist once.

Suggestions:

1. Make arts a lot rarer. I'd suggest to make them a factor 10-100 harder to find.
2. Let arts drop multiple times. (Purely chance based like unique items in diablo.)
3. Make arts bound to character. No other player but the owner*1 can pick it up/sell it/destroy it etc..
4. A player only may own (*1 ownership claimed by having item in inventory) a particular art once ever. (if it gets destroyed/sold and you owned it etc. you can never ever pick it up again)
5. Let players drop arts in houses.

/Discuss

Scorra
Mangy-Looking Leper
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue 27.09.2011, 11:02

Re: Arts

Post by Scorra » Tue 27.09.2011, 11:28

Craparts

There are lot of Arts that are not even usefull for there level range. These "craparts" should be reworked:

- they should have *unique properties* clearly different from Ego itmes
- they should add something *sought after* at that depth.
- They should not be *super good* at levels far beyond there depth.

For instance: it has unique properties that are sought after at level 500ft. The +2 to stats and (+8, +8) slightly better than slaying ego is nice but not game braking at lower depth.

The Set of Leather Gloves 'Cambeleg' (+8,+8) [1,+15]
----------------------------------------------------
It increases your strength and constitution by 2. It grants you immunity
to paralysis. It cannot be harmed by the elements.
Level 10, Rarity 6, 0.5 lbs, 36000 AU

Compare this to that crapart:

The Set of Gauntlets 'Paurnimmen' [2,+15]
-----------------------------------------
It provides resistance to cold. It slows your metabolism. It activates
for frost bolt (6d8) every 7+d7 turns. It cannot be harmed by the
elements.
Level 10, Rarity 3, 2.5 lbs, 13000 AU

The activation is hardly useful at all. There are so many ego items that add low res. Slow metabolism is hardly sought after and easy to get on different slots. -> fail art.

Suggestion:
- change the activation to something useful (create food comes to mind, identify, ...)
or
- add a high resist
or
- add something unique like "slay orc" on gauntlets

PowerWyrm
Balrog
Posts: 1574
Joined: Sun 27.11.2005, 15:57

Re: Arts

Post by PowerWyrm » Tue 27.09.2011, 11:35

1. This was the case in older versions of MAngband (artifact rarity was 100 times the base rarity). The reason why it was abandoned is that whatever the rarity of an artifact is, it's gonna be found sooner or later. Look at 'Ringil': rarity 100... but on this instance it was something like the third or fourth artifact found.
2. This breaks the idea of an 'artifact': an unique item that can only exist once.
3. Same as 2. For this point, I'd like to mention "random" artifacts. These exist in some variants and are bound to a character (check PWMAngband for a good example).
4. This already exists in MAngband! It's a server configuration option (PRESERVE_ARTIFACTS) and is by default set to "Players can find the same artifact again and again". Setting this to "Players can find an artifact only once" would change artifact management drastically.
5. Already discussed. If arts can be dropped in houses, you will never be able to find them again, because they will be hoarded forever. If you find an artifact, use it, carry it for later use... or simply sell it.

Note that MAngband has particular ego items made to replace artifacts you would use for specific slots. You can perfectly play without using artifacts ever. My current mage, diving at 6350, is finding maybe 5-6 artifacts on each dive. And I only have 3 artifacts equipped... the rest go back to shops as soon as I recall.

Ace
Crystal Ooze
Posts: 368
Joined: Fri 15.02.2008, 12:50

Re: Arts

Post by Ace » Tue 27.09.2011, 12:59

I think every new instance triggers this discussion.
There are some solutions to it, but then others would become unhappy and complain.

"Tomorrow" when the people have accepted that some artefacts will be gone for some time, there will be the house discussion flaming up, because some people want to buy big houses and the great ones have already been taken :)

Scorra
Mangy-Looking Leper
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue 27.09.2011, 11:02

Re: Arts

Post by Scorra » Tue 27.09.2011, 13:24

"2. This breaks the idea of an 'artifact': an unique item that can only exist once."

Neither do I agree with the logic of your statement nor do I agree that its implications are good for the game experience.

Arts are not unique in existence in any way, they don't get lost if I abandon a level that contains an art nor is regeneration prohibited if I decide to destroy an art. The drop rates of arts doe in no way reflect its uniqueness. Players are able to accumulate arts in a way totally unparalleled by the books that inspired the game. In the current state of the game arts are common but exclusive. So, the game grants the exclusive right for a common item. It is you to decide if it is generated or not.

I am totally aware that it is possible to win the game without arts. But from a game mechanic point of view I don't agree that it is a good idea to grant the first to play on a server the exclusive right on artefacts. Keep in mind that for some players it is allot more fun to accumulate items and build a better character than actually wining the game. For this type of player options are restricted.

"4. This already exists in MAngband! It's a server configuration option (PRESERVE_ARTIFACTS) and is by default set to "Players can find the same artifact again and again". Setting this to "Players can find an artifact only once" would change artifact management drastically."

This is not the same iirc. My suggestion includes the concept of ownership (bind on pick up). So you would have to find an art, you can't pass it to another player. You have to find arts! And unlike PRESERVE_ARTIFACTS ownership starts with picking an item up and not on level creation.

Thorbear
Two-Headed Troll
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed 12.01.2005, 15:00
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Re: Arts

Post by Thorbear » Thu 29.09.2011, 16:37

Scorra wrote:"2. This breaks the idea of an 'artifact': an unique item that can only exist once."

Neither do I agree with the logic of your statement nor do I agree that its implications are good for the game experience.

Arts are not unique in existence in any way, they don't get lost if I abandon a level that contains an art nor is regeneration prohibited if I decide to destroy an art.
Wait, wait, wait... you CAN'T destroy an art. And when you leave a level, it is still in the dungeon :)
Scorra wrote:The drop rates of arts doe in no way reflect its uniqueness. Players are able to accumulate arts in a way totally unparalleled by the books that inspired the game. In the current state of the game arts are common but exclusive. So, the game grants the exclusive right for a common item. It is you to decide if it is generated or not.
I'm not sure I see how your arguments here negate the fact that they are unique... There's only 1 copy of each of the items at any given time - seems unique to me (Unique - being the only one of its kind, Oxford Dictionary).

Perhaps the number of players could be a factor for artifact rarity. So that in the early days of an instance, when there's few players in the game, the artifacts are very rare to find, while later in the instance, when there is a lot of characters in the game, the artifacts flatten out to more normal rarity?

Furthermore, there could be a limit on the different kind of vaults, for how many artifacts they can hold, so that the vaults that always generate a lot of goodies are not filled with only arts early on in the game.

This all said, I don't really see any big problem or game-breaker here... The "early-birds" get first pick of unique items, but there's a limit to how many of them they're able to use at once, and this is where not being able to drop them in houses come in handy - the early-birds cannot hoard all the arts, the really rare artifacts are usually still really rare (afaik nobody has yet seen The One Ring, or the fabled [50] PDSM, even though the bottom of the dungeon has been reached).
I am Thorbear...

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