*Dest*/banish nerf idea

New ideas, features you wish were in the game.
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Domiano
Crimson Mold
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat 23.04.2011, 04:10

*Dest*/banish nerf idea

Post by Domiano » Mon 18.03.2013, 09:08

To counter the power of these two things, me/warrior thought of a couple things;
*Destruct*
If you *Destruct*, you will get stunned a little, or have a chance for some of your items to be crushed. The stun/the chance will increase as you destruct more on the level, since the level will become 'more unstable'.

Banishment;
If you banish a lot in a short period of time, it should hurt you more and more, since 'your weary mind is especially effected by the strain!'
It could also give stat drains, perhaps even permanent stat drains if you did it way too much!

PowerWyrm
Balrog
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Re: *Dest*/banish nerf idea

Post by PowerWyrm » Mon 18.03.2013, 12:41

Destruction: apply what was done in V -- also remove artifacts
Banish: no need to nerf that, you always have the chance to die, even more in MAng since you cannot perfectly control what you banish

Domiano
Crimson Mold
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat 23.04.2011, 04:10

Re: *Dest*/banish nerf idea

Post by Domiano » Wed 27.03.2013, 18:35

I'm not sure how I feel about V's solution... Makes artifacts feel less 'special'. Your not supposed to be able to destroy them...
And that only fixes part of the problem. You can still run around destructing monsters all willy-nilly. And, if your smart, you can do it without destructing many items.

I think we need to ask ourselves again: Do we want to be multiplayer angband, with as little different as possible, or do we want to be our own thing, and optimize game play how we see fit, based on how we find multiplayer changes the experience.

In my opinion, the second option is the correct choice. If we keep on trying to chase angband at every turn, without seeing if it 'makes seance' here, we will never have a game that is well balanced for multiplayer.

And with banish, I belive that you CAN make it safe to banish quite easily. If you have enlightened a lvl, you know about how dangerous it is. If their is a huge vault on a lvl, I will go around destructing monsters that are not in the vault before hand. This makes it so that its safe for me to banish the vault. If i see that the vault is practically all hounds or something, i will strategically destruct the monsters inside.

Ace
Crystal Ooze
Posts: 368
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Re: *Dest*/banish nerf idea

Post by Ace » Tue 02.04.2013, 18:36

It would surely remove the possibility to search the next 16x16 vault destr. it and pick up the items
Maybe banish should remove the items that monsters are standing upon too.

Emulord
King Vampire
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Location: UIUC

Re: *Dest*/banish nerf idea

Post by Emulord » Tue 02.04.2013, 20:12

How about vaults are immune to destruction/banish?
That alone would be a good enough nerf.

PowerWyrm
Balrog
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Re: *Dest*/banish nerf idea

Post by PowerWyrm » Wed 03.04.2013, 11:15

There are some vaults that are designed to be *des*ed or banished. Without these, vaults like Hellpit or any of the ZAngband vaults in MAng would be pointless...

Emulord
King Vampire
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Location: UIUC

Re: *Dest*/banish nerf idea

Post by Emulord » Wed 03.04.2013, 20:58

Maybe *Des* -> Earthquake and Banish only affects vault critters if you have line of sight?

Domiano
Crimson Mold
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Joined: Sat 23.04.2011, 04:10

Re: *Dest*/banish nerf idea

Post by Domiano » Thu 04.04.2013, 05:49

Hmm... I like the *des* earth quake idea, but I feel like it needs a small tweak (Unless this is what you meant)
Have destruction radius be the earthquake radius, to make it less powerful/more dangerous to abuse.

I also think that having banish only affect LoS vault monsters could work quite well! One especially evil thing which it may cause; players will 'spam' the banish button so that monsters will go away right away... BUT they may accidentally banish a bunch of hounds that spawned on the lvl and die... he heh...
Also, make banishing while in a vault cost twice the HP for great justice!

PowerWyrm
Balrog
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Re: *Dest*/banish nerf idea

Post by PowerWyrm » Thu 04.04.2013, 13:18

As I said, banishing in LOS wouldn't work for some vaults, because they are shaped like big pits and you wouldn't stand a chance in front of 500 monsters. And remember that *des* is the only way to dive past 5k if you want to avoid Morgoth...

Emulord
King Vampire
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Re: *Dest*/banish nerf idea

Post by Emulord » Thu 04.04.2013, 17:30

I meant that banish and Des would only get those nerfs in vaults.
Destruction has to work the way it currently does because of graveyards, morgoth, and bad level spawns

Domiano
Crimson Mold
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Joined: Sat 23.04.2011, 04:10

Re: *Dest*/banish nerf idea

Post by Domiano » Sun 07.04.2013, 04:44

Well, in upcoming versions, you will need Morgoth dead to dive past 5k...
But Emulord is right about graveyards/bad level spawns.

PowerWyrm also makes a very significant point about LoS banishing in vaults...
One possibility is that that banishing could work in vaults *if* you are in/next to them. You should be able to lure monsters out of the vault enough such that you can be in it at the very least, with the exception of Qs and ss.
Or, we could just go with increasing damage/consequences of banishes in succession, forcing each banish to be strategic.

Or, we could make vaults and banishing less 'needed' by making multiple items drop in a square... Thats really why were so pushed towards vault items. In TomeNET, killing monsters is fun, because you actually get full drops from summoners.
limiting drops makes the game more vault-oriented than killing-oriented.

Emulord
King Vampire
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Location: UIUC

Re: *Dest*/banish nerf idea

Post by Emulord » Mon 08.04.2013, 20:51

How about to nerf, monsters removed by banish or destruct count as negative exp.

Domiano
Crimson Mold
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Re: *Dest*/banish nerf idea

Post by Domiano » Tue 09.04.2013, 12:08

Interesting implementation! Though the exp loss would need to be balanced I think, and their would have to be a maximum % or amount of your experience that you could loose per banish, to prevent people from dying due to sudden EXP loss...


Their are some potential ways this nerf could be abused by players, but I think that it is likely a very good solution. It should be discussed further, and tested upon in the 1.2 beta which I assume will one day exist.

serina
Crystal Ooze
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Re: *Dest*/banish nerf idea

Post by serina » Sun 21.04.2013, 22:18

Thought I'd offer some of my thoughts on the issue.

First off: LOS in vaults for *dest*? What happens when you stair into a vault and didn't bring *dest* + 99 rechargings? You have to risk a teleport out? I don't like that idea.

The main problem as I see it is that all classes can *dest* and banish with almost zero risk once they get a staff.

One solution is to make the recharging work like in current Vanilla Angband, where the staff/wand gets destroyed if recharge fails. This also makes "Greater recharging" important for those who can learn that spell. And suddenly it makes sense to have that in Tenser's, which isn't easy to find without endless *dest*. If this is enabled, the stacking of wands/staves/rods no matter number of charges is a "must have" so some staves can be replaced by rods for warriors.

I love that you can make tactical "nukes" with *dest*, but even those who lack the actual spell have an endless supply of those high-end abilities simply by visiting a player-store and purchasing a staff or by a lucky pick @ store 7.
When I play, I don't even think twice using these items even if I only want 1 item from a tiny insignificant vault (for instance for getting a stat-potion). I can *dest* 10+times getting this "weak" item for zero risk and a cost of only 3-4 scrolls of recharging. The rest of the stuff in the vault easily makes the amount of cash needed to do it again and again and again.

ZAL

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