PK Vote

General discussion about the game. Pull up a stool and tell us your tale!
Domino
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Domino » Tue 28.02.2006, 15:47

Hey I've played regularly within the last year, I've given no-one free loot, and I don't feel I've crossed any lines.

While I hosed bran's ghost _I_ didn't kill his alts etc etc.  Nor do I accept any responsibility for Juan's actions.  He does as he wishes when he wishes for whatever reason he wishes.  At best I'll tell him to knock it off when I think he's being over zealous, which I do from time-to-time.

Frankly though I realy have no pity for someone who's dumb enough to hang around as a ghost on the same level they were just pked on and/or also foolish enough to log in an alt immediately after being pked.  

These arguments come up nearly every time he or I pk someone, and every single time we get backed up by Crimson as playing within the rules.  Only occasionally does he ever tell Juan to knock it off with regards to over-killing small players.  I have yet to be so cautioned because I don't do it.

As far as the art hoarding goes, I explained that before elsewhere in the forums.  There was no 'Oh Noes this guy outed my secret I must kill him!'.  If you recall the last server instance, I killed people for floating ghosts through my house then too.  My house is mine and what I have is not for public consumption.  

As for the arts themselves, Crimson used to run an audit fairly regularly and reset unused arts after a week or so of not being on a player so I didn't realy pay attention to them.  There was no plan to hoard, I simply didn't give it any thought.  Nothing I do here has ever been beyond his ability to find out and trust me, he does look.  And if there's a problem he will take action as he's proven time and again.  He may not say much, but then again he doesn't need to.

You guys seem to think there's this conspiracy between me and Juan to ruin everyone's else's enjoyment but that's simply not so.  Do you realy think that I couldn't kill off any other player that I wanted to?  Come now, you guys have seen me take out level 50's like they were nothing before, from Steel to Szy, Dwarfy to Maegdae.  If I want you dead, you're going to die.  And the fact is, I don't.  I rarely kill anyone, it's just that when I do, I kill them completely if I get the chance.  I don't play the half measures game.  Your fear that I will do that simply because I have the option to do so is YOUR problem.  

Fact of the matter is, this vote is irrelevant.  This is not a democracy and Crimson's voice is the only one that truly matters.  So far, the majority of the currently active people are fine with the way the rules are but even if they weren't they have the option to play elsewhere or start thier own server.  

What I don't understand is why no-one is willing to put in the effort to do so.  The like minded WILL show up.  My pkill server was fairly popular in the time I had it up.  I had over 30 unique ip's in less than 3 weeks which is pretty active for Mangband.  If you make a no-pkill server I'd pretty much guarantee that people will play it.  But trying to convince someone else to change things to your preference is lame.  I'm defending the status-quo not trying to get things changed, and when I did want more freedom I put up my own server.  Hopefully it'll be up again shortly but I'll still play the main instance too so don't think that I'm going to dissappear.
King of the Hill Baby!

Big_Juan_Teh_Furby
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Big_Juan_Teh_Furby » Tue 28.02.2006, 16:04

And something that boggles my mind is why do you automatically associate Domino with me, and vice versa?  Sure, we're best friends, and until recently lived together, but we have sometimes rather radically different views on this game.

I was quite happy taking out each one of you that complained, even WITH the threat of Domino killing me.  Crimson, however, has asked me not to, and, as a result, I won't.  Easy peasy.

So, please, quit automatically saying "Angus and Ice"...it's giving Angus a bad name.  I earn all the hate I get, and at times I cackle at it...but knock off lumping in Angus with everything *I* do.
When the winds of change blow hard enough, the most trivial of things can turn into deadly projectiles.

Crimson
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Crimson » Tue 28.02.2006, 17:08

[quote author=Big_Juan_Teh_Furby link=board=discussion;num=1140990716;start=30#31 date=02/28/06 at 16:04:36] Crimson, however, has asked me not to, and, as a result, I won't.  Easy peasy.
[/quote]

As a matter of accuracy, I asked BigJuan to "calm down before you put me in precarious situation, which you don't want to do."  I do not directly condone PKs, but neither would I directly ask someone else to stop, if they felt it was warrented.  The fine blue line here is it remains my judgement as to where it's justified, and I reserve all judgement with or without server rules to enforce it on my server.  Your Mileage May Vary.
Are you not entertained?
Is this not what you came here for?

-- Maximus Decimus Meridias, The Gladiator

MunkYBoY
Skeleton Hobgoblin
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Re: PK Vote

Post by MunkYBoY » Tue 28.02.2006, 17:30

lol pwnt.......................................yeah so thats the bottom line from what i can tell

Berendol
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Berendol » Wed 01.03.2006, 02:23

[quote author=Domino link=board=discussion;num=1140990716;start=30#30 date=02/28/06 at 15:47:29]Come now, you guys have seen me take out level 50's like they were nothing before, from Steel to Szy, Dwarfy to Maegdae.[/quote]

Good for you. I live with Steel, and you're pretty much the reason he and his aunt don't play or contribute anymore. Too bad, because he had a lot of useful ideas for making the game harder. I take full credit for getting us rid of that Later kid, though, who has since apologized for his actions IRL and accepted his fate of still being banned. Every time I bring up the game, Steel asks me if you're still playing, and won't play again because he isn't interested in getting ghost killed because you wanted an artifact he had. It doesn't matter if you apologized and hooked him up later, it matters more that you hosed him in the first place.

What's the point of going "Hey, I feel like utterly killing someone who's invested countless hours of their life in this game"?

Seriously, though, don't you think maybe there is a more challenging game out there for you? I mean, what's the point of playing MAngband after you have utterly mastered it? Haven't you? From your posts, it sounds like you have. I've wondered about your reason for still playing for awhile. Just curious, that's all - is it because being king of the hill is fun, or is there some challenge or contest that I am unaware of?

Please shed some light. I'm not trying to get things stirred up again. I'm genuinely curious to why you think this way. Might be educational for everyone, and it might help us make the game a little better balanced, somehow.

[edit] By the way Juan.. good point, lumping you and Angus together isn't fair for either of you...
By appreciation, we make excellence in others our own property. (Voltaire)

Domino
Giant Hunter Ant
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Domino » Wed 01.03.2006, 16:11

I killed Steel for numerous reasons and I never did hook him up or apologize later.  You're thinking of when Maegdae killed him for Dor-Lomin.

No I killed him because he would scum levels I was on and go raid vaults or kill uniques when I had prior claim since I was there first and I felt he had no respect.  If he's afraid to play since I'm around, well he's obviously learned that respect.

I continue to play because there is endless variation.  I enjoy finding rare and unique items, I realy love new servers where there's a lot of danger and no-one to rescue you.  And lastly yes, I do like the bragging rights of being King-of-the-hill.
King of the Hill Baby!

Big_Juan_Teh_Furby
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Big_Juan_Teh_Furby » Wed 01.03.2006, 16:38

Berendol, a question for you...and this is going to seem slightly inflammatory...why do you think you're special?

I get a very holier-than-thou sense from MOST of your posts of late.  You're not even an active player...your claims to fame are that you ran your own server and you're a board admin.  Basically you're a has-been player griping about things that you have the power to affect yourself...but you don't.  You, instead, make veiled threats to lock posts and ban people.

Steel's gone.  Oh well.  He had good ideas for the game?  Great!  If he cared, he'd help regardless of Angus playing...shoot, he might help just to make it MORE dangerous for Angus.  Can you imagine the level of satisfaction he'd get (potentially) when some ubermonster that he came up with RAILED through Angus?

So...what makes you so special?  Have you even hit level 50, ever?  You were always a so-so player at best.
When the winds of change blow hard enough, the most trivial of things can turn into deadly projectiles.

Narchan
Giant Spotted Rat
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Narchan » Wed 01.03.2006, 17:38

I will let Berendol defend himself, because I am sure he can.  But seriously BigJuan, why don't you think about yourself a minute.  What makes you so special other than you are a royal pain to a whole lot of Mang players?  And what kind of sense do most of your posts give off?  A horribly annoying blend of sillyness, sarcasm, and disrespect.  I never really had a problem with you, but the more of your posts I read, the more I dislike you  ;D.  And now that you are flaming someone contributes to Mang by spending time admining this board when Crimson isn't around, I am beginning to think that maybe you are trying to kill Mangband.
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uh oh

Big_Juan_Teh_Furby
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Big_Juan_Teh_Furby » Wed 01.03.2006, 17:52

Ah, no.

I have a problem with people who did things in the past thinking that they're owed something in the current.

Berendol is a mediocre player who once ran his own server.  He's now throwing his word around as if they're spoken from Crimson.

I have more respect for people like Avenger, who's currently playing.  If, say, Steel came back (just using his name as he's a good example of someone who quit) and started posting about the things that need to change, or things of that nature I'd be just as distasteful of his opinions.

If he, however, came back and had played more than five minutes, I'd welcome his opinions as much as I do Avenger's.  I wouldn't have to agree with them, but I'd value them more than I would a washed-up has-been.

I've played in a few different games where people who did something in the past for that game who were then left at their "elevated" levels, and it *never* ended up well.

If Berendol's running his own server, great.  He can be a hall monitor all he wants on his own server.  If Crimson gives him access to the God character and admin access to everything here at mangband.org, great, he can hall monitor HERE all he wants.  Until that time, he's a has-been, and as such, I discard his opinions.

As far as me thinking I'm all that?  I don't, really...but I *do* play.  Currently.  You'll note that during the time I wasn't playing, I didn't post anything serious (well, 'cept one post on how to deal with Kull, I think)...but once I got back into playing, I started posting again.  If I decide to quit playing again for awhile, you'll see my posting stop as well.

Basically, my opinion is this:

"If you're not actively developing the game, and you're not a player, your opinion isn't as important as you think it is, now sit down."

Of course, this IS coming from me, so your own mileage may vary.

And one thing I did forget to say before I hit send is to say:

Thanks, Berendol, for trolling through the forums and removing any spam posts.  I've never seen any, which means you're doing an AWESOME job, or that we're not being spammed...but I really have no doubt that if something DID spam us, you'd be jolly on top of it to remove it.  So, for that, thank you.
When the winds of change blow hard enough, the most trivial of things can turn into deadly projectiles.

Narchan
Giant Spotted Rat
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Narchan » Wed 01.03.2006, 18:40

Hmm, BigJuan I prefer it when you basically state your opinions instead of stating them with all your sarcasm and sillyness :).  Anyways, for the record, you aren't killing Mangband.  Your returns to Mangband always bring increased activity to the server and the forums.  And, since this thread was originally about PKing, I would like to say a few things regarding it.  I think everyone needs to lighten up on the PK issue.  Everyone always angry when they get PKed.  I think its just because of the fact that they can blame their death on someone other than theirself.  I mean when a monster kills a player its obviously that player's own stinkin fault so the player can't whine too much.  Also I think that people who want to be "safe" while playing Mangband seriously need to look for a different computer game.  I don't know about everyone else, but I LIKE roguelikes because of the risk that is present in them.  Death in roguelikes is intended to be terrible, and thats how I like it.  There is actually something at stake during combat.  And yes, this post is getting a little cluttered, but one last thing.  This is a game.  It's suppose to be fun.  So get killed (by a monster or a player--doesn't matter), but then start anew and have fun.
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uh oh

Big_Juan_Teh_Furby
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Big_Juan_Teh_Furby » Wed 01.03.2006, 18:43

Well, yeah, but if I didn't include sarcasm and silliness...where would I be?   :P

I'm a jerk at times, I'll be the first to admit it...at times, even proudly.  But I *do* care about this place...I just don't subscribe to the thought that comes back every few months of "oh god, someone got pkilled, that's it, the game's over!"
When the winds of change blow hard enough, the most trivial of things can turn into deadly projectiles.

Branmuffin
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Branmuffin » Wed 01.03.2006, 18:47

Someone needs to whip out their Two-Handed Sword of Slay Troll.

Berendol
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Berendol » Wed 01.03.2006, 19:51

That's exactly the kind of answer I was hoping for, Domino, and thank you. Very enlightening and just what I wanted.

Now, Bigjuan... I don't owe you an explanation (and neither does anyone owe me one) but I feel like writing, so here's a little.

Yeah, I admit freely that I'm not as good a player as you. Never have I claimed to be a better person than anyone, and my voice only counts as one voice among the multitudes. Honestly, you read too much into my thoughts. I want to know why people think the way they do.. it's always been something that has fascinated me. But I also want justice, which seems to pass by on occasion. So when someone bullies other people, I try to step in and help out.

If I had the time to play and get up there, I'd do it. That includes all the downtime I'd spend starting new chars because someone felt like I didn't respect them enough, or death to some pack of hounds, or time spent coding a fix to a bug I found. I really don't have that, though.. I just have time to check the forums on occasion, so I do that. Besides, I have a really snazzy new graphics card that plays other games really nice, which I very much enjoy doing.

If I were offered the login to MAngband's god character, I would refuse. I don't think I'd handle it rationally enough to warrant that kind of trust. No thanks.

If you don't like my posts, that's ok. I didn't say you had to like 'em. We'll always disagree on some things. I'd say I'm a pretty fair and just admin and you are free to disagree without repercussion, as long as you do it civilly.

I want to see the game better itself so that when I have time to come back and play this summer, that I will come back to something better than I left. Isn't that an honorable goal, or would you just rather have it stagnate so you can continue to play exactly the same way as before and get exactly the same results as before?

And finally, for your (re)information, I have contributed more to the dungeon experience than you have, considering the hundreds of hours of coding. I fixed bugs, cleaned up code, showed others how to add features, and took things in new directions. These things made their way upstream, with code and details being requested by Crimson and Jug, and some of them are going to be implemented later. The thanks I got for that are: Some people liked my server for a few months, and then someone hacked it. Repeatedly. Until I lost all desire to keep it running, and took it off the network.

Regarding the uber-monster.. Yes, he had some ideas for that, and I was in the process of implementing them, and then my server got hacked. I have no desire to continue that work at this time, because some people have that kind of mentality.

I know Steel can make a level 50 character in under five days and also that he can win. That's right up there with the other good players, but he's not coming back because you ruined his experience.

It's about competition for you, while it's about playing realtime Angband for him. That is the disconnect, the player-base dichotomy that keeps this PVP debate going year after year. There are no non-PVP servers running right now. I would probably play on one and spend less time in the forums if it existed and wasn't in some third world country that has 1600ms latency.

I know you don't care. You don't have to remind me. But for the sake of everyone else who might use my posts, I continue to make them.
By appreciation, we make excellence in others our own property. (Voltaire)

MunkYBoY
Skeleton Hobgoblin
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Re: PK Vote

Post by MunkYBoY » Wed 01.03.2006, 19:52

so let me ask a more relevant question to the topic. why arent the posts about the pk vote? bigjuan is appearing to have some inferiority complex about things from what i can tell. all you guys seem to do is just find a way to start an argument one way or another. could this, i dunno, possibly stop. it is rather bothersome to come on to the forums and just see a bunch of rambling and nothing all that relevant to mangband, or is it just me? seriously, grow up. ugh i hate making these kinds of posts

Domino
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Domino » Wed 01.03.2006, 20:20

Btw, please ignore Juan.. he's a tardmonkey at times and rarely thinks before he posts.  He'll just react rather than thinking about what types of reactions HIS posts will have.

Berendol gave me a lot of info when I was setting up the pk server that we ran Juan.  You know not of what you speak.

He's a good coder, has great ideas and we talked quite a bit about balance when he was setting up his servers.

I appreciate his thoughts and discussion about the vagaries of play here.
King of the Hill Baby!

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