PK Vote

General discussion about the game. Pull up a stool and tell us your tale!
Fink
Ancient MultiHued Dragon
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Fink » Mon 27.02.2006, 14:10

Why don't we let crimson, decide that , he is the programmer, and father of the server and game.

If he don't want to do that, is allrigth, maybe there are a lot of people that will want to play in other server, when a good one presents.

There are not so many diferent  people  playing regaulary, let's say 15 , 20 , so the change is not so dificult .

After that crimson , will decide to change the server and rebuild the comunity, or simple leave mangband.org  server for Ice, angus and crimson to play alone.

As a game and site administrator, if the 70% of the people that play here don't like PK rule is a choice that must make Crimson. Don;t you think. Let's him speak.

BTW if you do some of that techiques to kill someone.. is OK.. accidents happend. But is more fair  to figth a pack of agravated Vibration hound than Ice or Angus with all his Gear.

And after all.. I like this comunity that's is why i still post , there some excelent people here, that known respect in the daily trait, help. If Continue playis is cos of them.

If the server changes help build a comunity and make it strong and we can make friend there.. So this is more important than the whole game.

Domino
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Domino » Mon 27.02.2006, 14:30

Uhm Crimson has already voted and explained that there are a lot of changes necessary to do what is being requested.

I was re-iterating what he stated with more information.  Crimson has always been pk tolerant if not pro pk and I hardly think that your regurgitated comments are going to change anything.   This has all been done before.

Mostly people continue to go 'we don't like it' but aren't willing to put any work into helping change things.

What I was doing was posting some of the problem areas so that you (and everyone else) has at least an idea of what is involved.

Threatening to leave realy is your only card, and you (the argentinian crew) have played that already.  It's not changing the status quo.  If you choose to leave then leave.  Mangband.org will continue to be the most populous of the public servers for a variety of reasons.  

First and foremost it's stable.  It has an administrator who is while not consistantly available, quite reliable when he is around.  And lastly we generally work well together.  Even Ice doesn't go out of his way to kill old-timers.  Most of what he does has a purpose.

First and foremost it entertains him.  But it's not just that.  He tends to prey on newer characters not because he can't kill old-timers, far from it.  He's teaching you to be paranoid.  That may sound odd at first glance but think about it.  When you're paranoid in the dungeon your reaction is a bit faster, you start to strategize better, you get more on edge.  In short you become a better player because you have to if you want to survive.  It's not simply a matter of choosing where to play anymore.

The majority of the mangband community, given the choice only play where they feel 'safe'.  Tossing in players like myself and Ice leave no-where 'safe' and force you to either improve or die.
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Warrior
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Warrior » Mon 27.02.2006, 14:32

Well, a quick count gives us these results:

Out of a total 12 votes
  • A: No PK = 2
  • B: Restricted PK = 9
  • C: Free PK = 1
Which is hardly a surprising result.
I think however if it was either/or most of the B voters would go for A.

Anyway, Berendols solution seems to me a good one, no PVP in town, no ghost kills anywhere and notifications about hostile status.

As Angus says, implementation of those things might be rather complex and time demanding. Crimson says that players will find ways around restrictions. Both are right and this is something we might just have to live with, I don't think lots of effort should be put into this yet until we see how things go. At least it's not something that should (or could) be forced onto the maintainer.

I don't think there's an absolute need to implement anything discussed in this or the other pk'ing threads, all that _has_ to be done is to write it down and add it to the server rules. No town pk, no pk in the wilderness where there's houses and no ghost killing.

Branmuffin suggests putting level restrictions on the pk'ers, making dungeon pk'ing allowed within +/- 5 levels of your own would be relatively fair.

People will still get pk'd but it might seem slightly less offensive if it's by someone close to your own level.

- Warrior
-- Mangband Project Team Member

Big_Juan_Teh_Furby
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Big_Juan_Teh_Furby » Mon 27.02.2006, 14:35

[quote author=Domino link=board=discussion;num=1140990716;start=15#16 date=02/27/06 at 14:30:10] Even Ice doesn't go out of his way to kill old-timers.  Most of what he does has a purpose.

First and foremost it entertains him.  But it's not just that.  He tends to prey on newer characters not because he can't kill old-timers, far from it.  He's teaching you to be paranoid.  That may sound odd at first glance but think about it.  When you're paranoid in the dungeon your reaction is a bit faster, you start to strategize better, you get more on edge.  In short you become a better player because you have to if you want to survive.  It's not simply a matter of choosing where to play anymore.

The majority of the mangband community, given the choice only play where they feel 'safe'.  Tossing in players like myself and Ice leave no-where 'safe' and force you to either improve or die.[/quote]

Dang it, now they're going to send me flowers knowing that I'm not just this rabid frothing-at-the-mouth killer.

Thanks, Domino.  Frickin' wookie!   :P
When the winds of change blow hard enough, the most trivial of things can turn into deadly projectiles.

Domino
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Domino » Mon 27.02.2006, 14:38

Nono, Kull was/is rabid.  You're just annoying...

:D
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Big_Juan_Teh_Furby
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Big_Juan_Teh_Furby » Mon 27.02.2006, 14:38

[quote author=Domino link=board=discussion;num=1140990716;start=15#19 date=02/27/06 at 14:38:14]Nono, Kull was/is rabid.  You're just annoying...

:D

[/quote]

Oyeah, huh.
When the winds of change blow hard enough, the most trivial of things can turn into deadly projectiles.

Domino
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Domino » Mon 27.02.2006, 15:54

I think one of the easiest ways to reduce my pking would be the ability to ignore/silence players.

The majority of my pk's have been due to people just being stupid and bothering me via tells and/or global messages.
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Avenger
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Avenger » Mon 27.02.2006, 17:08

I agree with Angus that an ignore option, or at least a temporary mute, would be a good feature for the next release of MAngband. I still don't know as much as I'd like to about the C language, but I doubt that it would be very difficult to implement.
Another thing I think would be a good idea is to have a trade feature like Runescape has, where you can trade with other players, see what each player offers, and make sure that you are getting the trade you want. As far as I know there have never been any problems with this in MAngband, since our community is for the most part made up of trustworthy people. However it wouldn't hurt to have a system like this, and it would also make unbalanced trades easier for the audit system to detect.
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Domino
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Domino » Mon 27.02.2006, 17:38

I have had problems with trading before.  Both with having people come to my house to trade (guy quit inside making it so that I essentially lost the house) and trading in town and having some random guy zoom by and pick something up.

An auction house or trade window type thing would be great for future additions.
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zeb
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Re: PK Vote

Post by zeb » Mon 27.02.2006, 20:28

I say restricted pk... probably because I haven't been pked yet. It would be nice if we could duel without risking death though... and maybe even have dueling rankings, etc (dueling highscores!), but that might be tough to add to the game.

I like the idea of pking within +/- 5 levels at 500 ft., +/- 20 levels at 2000 ft., etc. (in the wild, you could take the absolute value, so +/- 17 levels at -1700 ft., etc., and going into the wild would be like entering pk friendly areas) Thus, in town, you can only pk someone at the same level (this might have to be changed). On top of that, a ghost should be considered as having half of the level a living player would (pretty much eliminating ghost killing).

I think pk adds to the game (why aren't we having group wars?), but it's really really nice when you stand a chance of surviving...
[Zeb] This guy should be easy!
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[Zeb] oops...

Berendol
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Berendol » Mon 27.02.2006, 21:59

I'd rather let the drolems teach me proper respect for the drolems, than have someone else say "Oh, you don't respect them enough, so I will kill you."

Level-based restrictions still allow undesired PVP combat if you're within the required level. What's to stop someone from twinking a character and pushing it up or down to your level in a week or so, just to kill you because it's "within the rules"? Anyone can strip a character and kill it repeatedly until its level drops, and almost anyone can make a mid-30s character within a week, and anyone with a level 50 character can supply themselves with excellents.

And don't forget, ball spells, traps, polymorph and other such indirect PKing techniques (see the ones Domino mentioned) are still technically within the rules and you can't easily prove anyone did anything in that situation. So perhaps we'll need to do some serious work to ensure that PVP is restrictable for those who want to have it that way on their server.

[quote author=zeb link=board=discussion;num=1140990716;start=15#24 date=02/27/06 at 20:28:46]why aren't we having group wars?[/quote]

Maybe because parties are temporary and player ghosts are killable... if the party leader's ghost dies, the party ceases to exist. That's not much incentive to get involved in a war.
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zeb
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Re: PK Vote

Post by zeb » Mon 27.02.2006, 22:47

Won't that make it more like real life? If you take out the leader, you take out the group.

Anyways, I doubt anyone is going to do any of the things you mentioned... why go to such effort just to kill one guy? Unless they're really annoying, in which case they deserve it (i.e. Kull).
[Zeb] This guy should be easy!
Zeb was slain by Morgoth, Lord of Darkness
[Zeb] oops...

Billsey
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Billsey » Tue 28.02.2006, 00:08

I say only limited PK. When I first started to play again, after a hiatus of several years, I was PKed twice on the first day I played, both time in town. It was almost enough for me to decide to stay away from the game. Why bother to even try if the higher level characters are spending their time wiping out the beginners?

After that first day, however, I've had nothing but good experiences. I think the game is one best played in cooperation with the other players. Maybe we need a 'King the whole party' option with parties frozen when they first reach 5000'.

For PKs, limiting them to outside town or in the dungeon with a maximum differential between players sounds best. Though I realize it's not a simple implementation...
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Murdin
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Murdin » Tue 28.02.2006, 00:21

Pressed between the two options I'd choose PK over no-PK because I realize the necessity of it in an environment like MAngband, and I also realize that the players can come together to deal with any true problems.

On a somewhat unrelated note, though, more permanent parties would be nice, especially if they allowed for co-leaders. Would make for a good tool for/against PvP.
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Fink
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Re: PK Vote

Post by Fink » Tue 28.02.2006, 00:37

A: No PK.


And let's assume the silent votes of people who have been driven away from the game by allowing players to ruin other players experience. And, for more fun, let's filter out the votes of people who haven't even freaking played in a year, having only returned to kill some players and give away some free loot after realizing they crossed the line.

Cuz let's be really clear why this entire discussion is taking place now: because Juan and Angus decided to show and and kill a new player, his ghost, and the player's alts, because the player pointed out something these guys were doing that was lame, and against server rules.

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